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| Owlbait |
 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:07 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 92
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I favor the theory that Harry's scar is one of the Horcruxes. Remember that when Voldemort posessed Harry after the battle in the Ministry, he felt as if his scar had broken open.
I'm not sure what he intended at that point. He had killed James, so he was in a position to split off part of his soul. He next intended to kill Harry, in order to void the prophecy, but Lily stood between.
For reasons we don't know, he hadn't intended to kill Lily. Maybe after killing James and Harry he intended to make her the horcrux? Or maybe James was in possession of an artifact of Godric Gryffindor's. There has been quite a lot of speculation about his possible relationship to Godric. |
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| Pace |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:16 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Cologne (Germany)
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I disagree with Harry or his scar being a horcrux. The prohpecy says:
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches
Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies
And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not
And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survies
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies (quote: OOTP, p. 741, hardcover, British edition)
The splitting of a soul into horcruxes is supposed to make Voldemort immortal (or as immortal as he can get); however, by attacking Harry he has marked him as his equal, his opponent. It is crucial that he kills Harry or his plans will forever be thwarted - would YOU place a part of your soul into someone you'd have to kill anyways for safekeeping? It doesn't make any sense.
Also, I don't think that in Voldemort's opinion there was any need for Lily and James to die. Keep in mind that he does not believe in love, neither its existance nor its power (maybe he never knew love?). If Lily and James had just stepped aside and let him kill their baby, he would have most likely let them live, IMO. However, both willingly sacrificed their lives to protect their baby (I think the concept of a willing sacrifice is also quite foreign to him), attempting to cross his plan and thus had to be removed.
So no, Harry can't be the horcrux. The prophecy makes it impossible for him to be both, the horcrux AND the one to overthrow the Dark Lord. |
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| Owlbait |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:27 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 92
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I totally agree Voldemort didn't intend to make Harry a horcrux. If he is, it is some sort of unintended consequence of the AK curse backfiring.
If he intended to use Harry's death for the purpose of splitting his soul again to make the last horcrux he may not have been able to help it. When the curse hit him, the partially completed horcrux spell may have scrabbled for purchase wherever it could. |
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| Pace |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:46 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 43
Location: Cologne (Germany)
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That, too, would negate the prophecy. Clearly one of them will survive the final encounter, no matter what. If Harry is the horcrux by accident, he can't survive. But if Harry doesn't survive that means that Voldemort will and if he will then evil wins over good - and I can't see that ending comming (although it would be something new if highly disappointing).
Also I believe that neither Lily's nor James' death would be suitable for the creation of a horcrux. If all one needed to create a horcrux was a murderer, then Pettigrew must have at least 12.
No I think that to mutilate ones soul like this, one requires a particularly gruesome murder. Children - especially babies - are the incarnation of innocence. Maybe it was the murder of something pure that enabled the creation of horcruxes. In this context I would also like to refer to the slaughtered unicorns in PS/SS. Because I feel like it, here another quote:
'Harry Potter, do you know what unicorn blood is used for?'
'No,' said Harry, startled by the odd question. 'We've only used the horn and tail-hair in Potions.'
'That is because it is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn,' said Firenze. 'Only one who has nothing to lose, and everything to gain, would commit such a crime. The blood of the unicorn will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something pure and defenseless to save yourself and you will have but a half life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips.'
(PS/SS, p. 279-280, paperback, British edition)
This sounds to me like horcrux material. What about you guys? |
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If it's not chocolate I'm not interested. |
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| blah_blah_blah |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:52 pm |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
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Pace wrote: Also I believe that neither Lily's nor James' death would be suitable for the creation of a horcrux. If all one needed to create a horcrux was a murderer, then Pettigrew must have at least 12.
I think the act of committing a murder makes it posssible to create a horcrux. You still must have the skill and knowledge as to how to create one. Basically, I think Peter is too stupid to create one. |
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| Kherezae |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:53 pm |
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Maryland
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Does the prophesy really say one of them has to survive? Only that they can't both survive. Besides, seeing as these are children's books, if Harry was actually a horcrux, there'd probably be a loophole so he could destroy the piece of Voldemort's soul inside without killing himself. Or getting killed. Whatever.
I think any murder will do for a horcrux, but it isn't just the murder that does it, or else for any murdered person there'd be a horcrux for some criminal. Voldemort is powerfully magical. I'm sure there's something else required, a spell or something, to use the soul-rending by murder to create a horcrux.
Voldemort may well have planned to use Harry's death to create another horcrux because it would be like a double trophy for him. But I don't think he would have planned to use Harry as the horcrux itself. If Harry is indeed a horcrux, I think it was entirely by accident.
I also think that the fact that he didn't kill Harry doesn't mean he didn't rend his soul. He went through all the motions, fully intending to kill an infant. I think it's what you do that counts, not whether the person actually dies or, by some miracle, survives. If you fully intend to kill and don't back down... I think your soul would be, erm, rent. |
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| QIK |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:39 pm |
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Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 11
Location: Berlin, Germany
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My oh my, this whole Horcrux stuff is mind-flipping. I'm absolutely confused.
But personally, I don't think that Harry or his scar or any part of him is a Horcrux. Like some of you said, that would mean Harry has to die and I think it's very unusual that the hero in a childrens book dies. Okay, HBP wasn't really for kids, so maybe the ending isn't for kids either but it just doesn't make sense for me that Harry has to die. Imagine all of those twelve year old girls, they will want JKR's head if she kills Harry. Well, they will want it, too if she kills Draco but I guess that's more due to the fact that they will have to see Tom Felton die somewehere in the future.
I really like the idea that the locket that Dung had came into the Black heritage by Regulus and harry has to find Dung to get it. But I guess it's more likely that JKR just showed Dung's thievery to show that theft might hurt somebody else.
Much speculation and no answers for about two or three years. I think I'll go mad during that time. |
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| luckycharms |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:45 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 7
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I figure this is the place to throw out our ideas no matter how bizarre, and this is pretty out there.
Dumbledore says it may be a Gryffindor object, Harry states he will start his quest at Godric's Hollow (which is a pretty signifagant place to LV) that he has a feeling he needs to go there and how many times are we told that Lily's eyes are important (just the color or the eyes?) How nasty would it be if any part of her was a Horcrux. I know the chance is remote at best, but not impossible.
Sorry, my warped mind. |
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| Two Methyloctane |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:52 am |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 96
Location: Calgary, Canada
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While the idea that a living person (or piece of a person) is a Horocrux, I don't really see that being a huge option. I can see Voldemort putting them into things that he could hide away from people to protect them, not have them walking down main street.
Sure, the prophecy says one must kill the other, but Dumbledore says that it's not necessarily true, and that we choose to follow it. Given that logic, Harry could still be killed by Muggle or magic means, and there's another Horocrux gone...
I think Voldemort killed Harry's parents and attempted to kill him only to destroy them, nothing more. |
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire |
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| luckycharms |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:14 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 7
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Just a question about something, Dumbledore had to drink the potion to get to the "fake" Horcrux, but if RAB has the real one;
A) how did he know what was in there to begin with so he could carry around a locket just like it
B) how did the potion become refilled after RAB got through with it?
C) after they retrieve the fake Horcrux and escape the Inferi Dumbledore states, "The protection was.. after all.. well designed, one alone could not have done it" who helped RAB then?
Don't know if it belonged here, but it was eating at me. |
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| Kedd |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:19 am |
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 8
Location: NS or ON, Canada
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Quote: I think the act of committing a murder makes it posssible to create a horcrux.
To me, and this is just a stab in the dark, I agree that in order to create a Horcrux there must be more involved than simply murder. It is obviously a magically expensive creation [otherwise why wouldn't everyone do it, aside from the murdering bit] and personally, I think the murder is just one part of some ritual needed to create a Horcrux. Cause if just murder did it then, well, Snape should now be immortal [oh happy happy day!]. Sadly, I find that rather unlikely.
I guess I found that this book raised a lot more questions than it answered. I mean we don't know how Horcruxes are created, other than that a murder is involved, we don't know how they are destroyed. And if it is as simple as, for instance, cracking the stone in the ring, where does the soul go? Is there a bit of Voldie soul just floating around after it is released from the ring? Does it return to join with the rest of itself? Or is there another ritual to destroy the soul as well?
Any thoughts, anyone?
Quote: how did the potion become refilled after RAB got through with it?
Maybe there's a charm on it to prevent it from ever running out. We see people conjure up liquids in this one, so why should that be much different. And I mean, honestly, if that potion had been sitting there for about 50 years it would have evaporated by now. |
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| Osiodhachain |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:02 am |
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Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
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I'll admit that I skipped over most of the discussion, so if I'm repeating stuff, I apologize. I just wanted to cut straight to a thought I had, before it flitted away.
It was mentioned that Riddle wanted to make 7 Horcruxes:
1. Himself
2. Diary
3. Marvolo's Ring
4. Slytherin's Locket
5. Hufflepuff's cup
6. Nagini
7. Harry?
I realize that it has already been postulated on other posts that Harry himself is a Horcrux, having been transferred a part of Voldemort's soul when the killing curse backfired.
How fitting that would be, that the one with the power to conquer the Dark Lord, born as the seventh month dies, would be the seventh Horcrux that is keeping him alive. Seven seems to have been made significant and the fact that the line "born as the seventh month dies" was repeated twice in the prophecy seems to underline that.
Just a thought. |
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| blah_blah_blah |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:02 am |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
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Kedd wrote: Quote: I think the act of committing a murder makes it posssible to create a horcrux.
To me, and this is just a stab in the dark, I agree that in order to create a Horcrux there must be more involved than simply murder. It is obviously a magically expensive creation [otherwise why wouldn't everyone do it, aside from the murdering bit] and personally, I think the murder is just one part of some ritual needed to create a Horcrux. Cause if just murder did it then, well, Snape should now be immortal [oh happy happy day!]. Sadly, I find that rather unlikely.
Someone mentioned basically the same thing on another thread concerning Peter. That he would have about 12 horcruxes out there.
As I said before: the act or murder makes it possible to create a horcrux. The murder doesn't create it...it just makes it possible. You still need skill, desire, and knowledge of whatever spell, charm or potion that might be need to complete the process.
Kedd wrote: I guess I found that this book raised a lot more questions than it answered. I mean we don't know how Horcruxes are created, other than that a murder is involved, we don't know how they are destroyed. And if it is as simple as, for instance, cracking the stone in the ring, where does the soul go?
Possiblly the stone cracked as a result of Dumbledore destroying the piece of soul. We don't know how it was destroyed. We just know that it was and that the stone is now cracked. I am guessing that it was cracked in the porocess of destroying the bit of soul. |
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| blah_blah_blah |
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:10 am |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
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Osiodhachain wrote:
How fitting that would be, that the one with the power to conquer the Dark Lord, born as the seventh month dies, would be the seventh Horcrux that is keeping him alive. Seven seems to have been made significant and the fact that the line "born as the seventh month dies" was repeated twice in the prophecy seems to underline that.
Just a thought.
If I remember correctly, when Harry finally got the unaltered memories from Slug we witness Tom talking about making 7 horcruxes because 7 is, in Tom's opinion, the most powerfully magical number.
In fact, on page 498 he says:
Quote: --I mean, would one Horcrux be much use? Can you only split your soul once? Wouldn't it be better, make you stronger, to have your soul in more pieces, I mean, for instance, isn't seven the most powerfully magical number, wouldn't seven-- |
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| Beulah_Page |
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:38 am |
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Nebraska, United States
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I had thought of Wormtail's silver hand being a Horcrux, too, but on rereading that bit, LV says "Kill the Spare", which would signify that he disn't consider Cedric important enough to kill himself and that one of the DE did it.
And reading the part about the locket and the other stuff found at Grimmauld, I noticed there was a book on wizarding genealogy that I haven't seen anyone mention. It would seem that Harry et al would go back to Grimmauld and discover the book which would give some helpful info, perhaps on James' family? Though I'd be interested in anything on any of the other families. |
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