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EnigmaVX

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:58 am

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

What is so fascinating about Severus Snape?

For me it is not just one or two things but the whole complexity of his character, both what is in the books and movies but what JK says in her interviews and what it seems is perhaps a main theme of her series, love.

We have a dark, sarcastic, intelligent, (one might say genius) man who is not only creative with spells and potions but able to speak and write poetically. Add to that he is powerful both in presence and with his spells and potions. His words always seem to say one thing while most of the time his actions shout the opposite. She supposedly wanted Allan Rickman to portray him, a man that is not only loved by woman worldwide for his looks but his incredible mesmerizing voice. I ask why him? Is it just because he has portrayed villains so convincingly? Well other not so good looking or sounding actors would have done just as well if she wanted a simple villain I would think. What an attractive package! Who wants a simple obsession? As females a lot of us like that dark, brooding, sarcastic, misunderstood male who also happens to be powerful, brave and hey poetic, and now most of us now see Alan Rickman when we picture Snape.

The interviews JK gives on him, are they perplexing or what!!!! We get hints that he may have a redeeming pattern but won’t know tell book seven. While we know that Love is a central theme in this series, when asked about Severus and love we get who would want to love him, that is a horrible idea…horrible idea … WHY since love is such a big part of this series. She never comes out and calls him evil nor defends him either although we can now dismiss all the vampire and Lord of Darkness theories…perhaps one of you is clear about whether she meant them as one in the same or two different terms?

During the first five books we are bounced between hating him or thinking gee this poor guy keeps getting Harry out of scrape after scrape and on top of that maintaining a cover in order to spy on the Dark Lord without any credit that we are shown. In the movie version he even uses his own body to shield the trio from Lupin in werewolf form and it is my understanding this scene had her approval, why add it, I mean look at it this way if Snape is evil why protect the trio why not let them get bitten? In the book we know he was unable to act one way or the other but here he protects them…anyone else confused.

After book six we are now even more conflicted about Snape is he the simple villain so many think killing Dumbledore either for himself or for the Dark Lord or is he so incredibly brave that he was willing to kill his mentor to…well lets see…save him from a slow horrible death by poison…save him from being taken to Voldemort…save Draco’s soul…some plan to fake a death gone astray…take your pick or a combo so many more choices here than the ones I have listed even. Add to that if we do assume he killed Dumbledore for the greater good, we now have him cut off from the Order, for all we know a hunted man Harry definitely wants a piece. What of Voldemort? Snape didn’t encourage Draco to fulfill the order given him and hey lets see the vow he took (without Voldemort’s knowledge) was only to fulfill it if Draco couldn’t, will Voldemort be upset? The idea was to get Draco killed wasn’t it…so now will Snape be on the outs with both sides? If Voldemort doesn’t mind Snape finishing the job well… would he be able to continue spying and helping Harry from the sidelines to find the remaining Horcruxs, will he aid Voldemort, or will he be out for himself to become the next Dark Lord or well what… We can debate the idea of Snape being the gray character to sit in the middle of Harry and Voldemort all we want but we still can’t not honestly say if he is Black, white, or gray tell book 7. Name me any other character that has us so at odds not only with each other but ourselves…Draco well perhaps a tad after book six but really he still isn’t as interesting as Snape now is he.

So we will wait a few years debating, analyzing, debating some more tell the final book. Where we will finally have Snape the unsung hero, Snape the evil traitor, Snape the opps I wanted to live but now I’ll help rid the world of Voldemort, Snape the I was completely out for my self and have either died trying to become the next Dark Lord or have filled the position in order to completely annoy the boy who lived, or perhaps the one possibility that completely terrifies me Snape the we still don’t know…JK manages to end the series with him living or dying without us ever finding out.

Regardless of the ending surely no one can argue that she has given us one of the most complex characters in literary history.

Long live Snape!!!!!

Verity Brown

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:09 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

EnigmaVX wrote:

In the movie version he even uses his own body to shield the trio from Lupin in werewolf form and it is my understanding this scene had her approval, why add it, I mean look at it this way if Snape is evil why protect the trio why not let them get bitten? In the book we know he was unable to act one way or the other but here he protects them…anyone else confused.

And considering that we know that once upon a time he almost got bitten-or-killed by this very same werewolf, I was rather impressed that he would stand his ground like that.

Quote:

perhaps the one possibility that completely terrifies me Snape the we still don’t know…JK manages to end the series with him living or dying without us ever finding out.

I suppose that would be better than finding out that Snape is really evil. But endings with ambiguities like that drive me nuts! Well, kinda like this book did. :~P Still, an ambiguous ending would leave more room for fan-fiction for years and years to come.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

azazello

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:17 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

Er, hate to spoil things, but that only happened in the movie, and cannot therefore be taken as canon, in the least.

Rowling has not much control over the script writing.

There's been way too much idiocy in SS/HG shipping over the significance of that scene. It is not in the book. Snape is unconscious at that point and being transported by means of Mobilicorpus. To protect the trio when Lupin transforms, Sirius also transforms and fights him.

In other words, that scene is in direct contravention of book canon. Book is canon, movie is not.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

just me

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:43 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 28 Location: Germany

azazello wrote:

Quote:

Er, hate to spoil things, but that only happened in the movie, and cannot therefore be taken as canon, in the least.

Rowling has not much control over the script writing.

You seem to be right with your idea about JKR´s lacking influence on the movies, but there is one thing she said, which makes your comment appear in a different light. I found it here in the forums.

VerityBrown wrote:

The extra features on the PoA DVD include an interview in which JKR says that the screenwriter put in things that aren't in the book and that she didn't tell him to put in, but that are foreshadowing for the later books.

I don´t know exactly whether this is said only for PoA, but I think not, as we all know that all 3 movies so far show things which are not in the books. I think it is because the books are Harry´s POV exclusively, but the movies show a more generell view. And this is why Snape seems not all that bad in the movies as he seems to be in the books, because in "reality" he is not as bad as Harry sees him in his a bit lopsided mind... well, he is still a child, a pupil, a newbie at Hogwarts.
And there is the animosity between Harry and Snape right from the beginning, from both sides. Where Snape´s animosity stems from is well known, but why Harry dislikes or mistrusts Snape from the beginning is -- in my opinion -- due to the scene in the great hall, where Snape looks at Harry and Harry´s scar begins to hurt. Harry thinks (later) it happened because of Snape, but that´s not true, because Snape was sitting close to Quirrell and was talking with him (or better with Voldemort, as we know now). So the reason for the pain was not Snape, but Voldemort. I don´t think Harry becomes aware of this fact later, but they both (Snape and Harry) had -- so to say -- a very bad start.

So I think Movie!Snape could be as well in canon as Book!Snape, I would not exclude that completely.

And Book!Snape (together with Movie!Snape) could very well be redeemed in Book 7 and maybe could also survive to tell the tale. Because Movie!Snape shows us a somewhat better person as Harry (in the books) is able to see.

All the best,
just me

___________________________________________
Exclamation

SSS - Save Severus Snape Exclamation

azazello

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:12 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

cough..

Snape's thin in canon...

Alan Rickman is not.

I could rest my case right there, but hell, let's kick the idea of movie being canon firmly into touch, why not?

JKR said that she did not ask the "foreshadowings" to be in, they just came up by coincidence. The movies did that by accident. The movies are NOT canon. Otherwise, canon Hermione would be a thumping great Mary Sue like she is in POA and would steal all of Ron's best lines...

Rolling Eyes

Movie is an entirely different media from book. Every thought that a character has in a book has to be rendered into visual. You cannot have Harry reflecting how much he hates Snape - it would not work. You have to show it by a different means.

True canon fans HATE Steven Kloves - the man who has written the abysmal scripts for the first four movies. He's freely stated how he loves Hermione (and Emma) and talks her role up. She was suified beyond redemption in movie 3. Ron is atrociously rendered in the Movies - he's like some idiot. I blame movie contamination for most of the SueMione's in bad fanfic, and also for some of the Ron rape that takes place. Ron's no fool. He played a game of chess for the three of their lives in book 1. It is his strategic know how that saves them at that point. Generally, in the books, there is a balance between the abilities of the three friends, with Harry being the most magically gifted. It's out of balance in the movies.

In book one, Harry does not hate Snape because of the Great Hall glaring. he does not even hate him in the whole of the book, but rather starts hating Snape after book 3, for his attempt to have Sirius Dementor-kissed. Harry's view of Snape prior to that, was that Snape was merely his least favourite teacher - in fact, I'd suggest that Harry starts really hating Snape after Occlumency, which is then strengthened by Harry's belief that Snape bears blame for Sirius's death (a blame that might be more deserved than we think, seeing as Snape boasts about his role in that in the Spinner's End chapter).

Snape hates Harry, that is true, and is snide and sarcastic to him - before he has any reason to be. Harry doesn't like him - well, would you, in Harry's place? Hate? Not until book 5. Loathing - definitely after book 6. And someone tell me, why should Harry not hate Snape after book 6?

And no, I do not want your theories about Snape's innocence real, or feigned, I want anyone reading this to put themselves in Harry's place and see what he saw, and then ask why he should not loathe Snape. Hell, he's not alone. At the end of book 6, most canon characters hate Snape.

Before we get into an argument over Movie!Snape vs Canon!Snape, lets redefine canon.

Canon is the word of the AUTHOR. JKR does not write the scripts. A fanfic writer (for he's no better than a good deal of fanfic writers) called Steven Kloves does. So far, he has managed to do the following:

Omit all the relevant back story so that the big scene between Lupin and Sirius and Snape in POA was castrated.

Take most of Ron's good lines and give them to Hermione.

Essentially make Snape so side to the issue of everything that you'd hardly know he was there. Where was the wonderful scene in COS where he intercepted Ron and Harry, for instance?

Where was his melt down after Sirius escaped in Movie 3, for instance?

Totally made over Remus Lupin into someone I hardly recognised. Ditto Sirius Black.

Given us the dreadful movie!Lucius*, and thereby spawned dreadful Lucius porn. That bloody stupid cane idiocy!

No, please, do not quote movie to me. Movie is not canon.

*Jason Isaacs is cute; he is not Lucius Malfoy.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:56 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

I agree completely. I don't even bother considering the movies when thinking about canon. The movies are neutered versions of the books. They're the pedestrian version, the one people who don't read the books can see and get a general idea of what the books are like.

I understand you can't get everything into the movies, but they could've tried a little harder to get what they could right... like the actors... I love Alan Rickman, he has the perfect voice for Snape, but he is not Snape. Emma Watson is a very pretty girl. Her hair isn't bushy in the movies, and she just doesn't feel right as Hermione.

The only characters I think they did get very right are Gilderoy Lockhart (because Kenneth Branagh is incredible), McGonagall, Dumbledore (I prefer Michael Gambon, personally... Richard Harris you could tell was getting pretty frail... he didn't exude Dumbledore-ish energy like Gambon does) and Rita Skeeter, going from pictures I've seen.

I enjoy the movies for what they are, but I would never ever consider them canon.

As for Jason Issacs, I think he does Lucius Malfoy well. I've always pictured Lucius as a very attractive man, even if he is an asshole (but that seems to happen a lot...). I think the cane is a little over-the-top, but overall, he is a lot like I imagined him.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

just me

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:57 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 28 Location: Germany

Apologies to azazello

Dear azazello,

I´m terribly sorry that I dared to express a different opinion than yours, it was not meant personally. I thought this was a free forum where every member could express his or her thoughts/feelings or theories to maybe enlighten the whole situation. Obviously it is not. Maybe it is not good to have a different view than a SH admin... I don´t know.

Well, let me say, I never wanted to attack you personally or whatsoever you are reading in my lines that you have to react this way. Maybe my bad english is offending you, or maybe my thoughts are not as comprehensible as I wish they would be.

You obviously see my thoughts as rubbish... well, so may it be.

I still cling to my theory that Snape is not as bad as Harry wants him to see -- fanfiction or not -- because not everything in the world is only black or only white. Maybe you see this in a different way... okay, no problem for me.

I won´t bother you in the future, because I will restrain myself from answering your postings or from quoting you. Is this acceptable?

If you´d rather have me leaving SH completely... welll, no problem either. There are other websites in this world where I can find good fanfiction.

As I already mentioned I thought this was a free forum for every member, but I was obviously wrong.

All the best,
just me

_________________________________________________
Exclamation

SSS - Save Severus Snape Exclamation

aphrodeia

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:43 pm

Moderator Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 46

Let's ease up here, all. Everyone gets an opinion, and nobody has been stopped from voicing them. We've never even considered doing so. If you have an issue with someone on the boards, please take it private, or contact an Admin. The boards don't need fighting.

Thanks,
Aphrodeia
SH Admin

azazello

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:11 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Dear Just me

This forum is a debating forum. That's what debate is. It means you expressed one thing, and I expressed the opposite to this view. I did that because I do not agree with what you said. That's the basis of debate. Otherwise this list would be like a fanfic list with endless "me too" posts.

I can disagree if I want. You can disagree if you want. Prove to me what I said was wrong. Rebut what I said, point by point. I'd be amused and entertained.

What I would suggest you cannot do, it post a childish and petulant attack on me, simply because I have attempted to rebut your arguments. And essentially I shall go on rebutting arguments made on the basis of what someone does in the movies as a justification for canon.

I'm getting very tired as an SH admin of being told by a number of folks (usually indirectly, or by virtue of their whinging illiterately in WIKTT misc - not you, but I've had copies of posts made there about me sent on) that I cannot express opinions.

What we are debating here is the new book. BOOK. Generally since Sunday last, I have made one thread. It is an essay that clearly analyses the choices we the readers can make around the character of Severus Snape. So far, I've been on the end of a great deal of cheek and pettiness, and indeed childish petulance. I'm taking my gloves OFF at this point because you have made a number of accusations here. Allow me to rebut them, one by one:

Quote:

I´m terribly sorry that I dared to express a different opinion than yours, it was not meant personally. I thought this was a free forum where every member could express his or her thoughts/feelings or theories to maybe enlighten the whole situation. Obviously it is not. Maybe it is not good to have a different view than a SH admin... I don´t know.

Indeed you can express opinions. However, I can rebut them, same as any other member of this forum. That's what a forum is. This is about canon debate, not a "Canon busted my fanon Severus mutual pity party".

And stow it with the SH admin. That's rubbish. I'm not here as an admin. I do not mod here.

Quote:

You obviously see my thoughts as rubbish... well, so may it be.

Actually I neither said, nor implied any such thing. You clearly, like one or two others on this forum have appointed me the person to take a swipe at. However, a petulant tantrum like this is not exactly the way to make me respect your debating skills. I don't think anyone's thoughts are rubbish though there have been one or two points made that seem to border on the hysterical.

Quote:

Well, let me say, I never wanted to attack you personally or whatsoever you are reading in my lines that you have to react this way. Maybe my bad english is offending you, or maybe my thoughts are not as comprehensible as I wish they would be.

Nothing about what you said earlier is offending me, though I find this latest post offensive in the extreme. I'd refer you to what was said earlier this week about personal attacks. That still stands, and it's a rule you just broke. I said that I did not think actions in the movies were ever going to be proof of an idea in an argument about motivations and such in the books. Prove I am wrong, please, or even attempt to do so. I'll listen just as long as you refrain from a personal attack or a rant about me.

Quote:

I still cling to my theory that Snape is not as bad as Harry wants him to see -- fanfiction or not -- because not everything in the world is only black or only white. Maybe you see this in a different way... okay, no problem for me.

Erm, what is your understanding of the purpose of a forum? I never said your opinions were rubbish. If you actually read my posts here, instead of knee jerking every time I dare suggest what none of you seem willing to even contemplate which is that Snape's actions are subject to several interpretations in book 6, you'd see that all I've said about the "Snape and Dumbledore cooked it all up together" was that it is full of holes. There are a great many questions I have about this idea. His goodness is NOT proven in book 6 - that's why there is debate all over fandom about this. That's why on more "debate orientated" forums there are theories going back and forth, with this bit of evidence being cited, and that bit. And others saying that they believe Snape is evil. There is as much evidence for both sides in the book. You chose to believe he is good. I'm not saying and have never said you should not. What I have said is that for my part, I am not yet convinced either way. Do please tell me what is unreasonable about that, apart from the fact that it does not agree with your view.

There's nothing dogmatic, in my opinion about saying, "Well actually I do not know what is going on" - I'd suggest it is those here who insist Snape was never bad who are the dogmatists, not me.

Quote:

If you´d rather have me leaving SH completely... welll, no problem either. There are other websites in this world where I can find good fanfiction.

As I already mentioned I thought this was a free forum for every member, but I was obviously wrong.

It is a free forum and sullen threats to leave do no one any favours. Please remember I have a right to express my opinion too. I think what is really an issue here is that I express my opinions strongly, and with conviction. That I can generally quote chapter and verse from canon, because I've read canon through and through. Is that the problem? I think it is. I've belittled no one here. I think some of the theorising is good, I have to admit a good deal of the theorising is, in my view, based on hasty analysis and also a panicked knee jerk reaction to the new book. Fair enough. I refuse to subscribe to a view just because it is the popular and prevailing one, your views may vary, I've never said they should not.

I'm fed up with being basically personally attacked simply because my views do not follow the majority, and I am also fed up with people whinging whenever I contest something they say. That's debate.

Deal. With. It.

I've no power to moderate anyone here. I am here as a private citizen. I'm NOT a mod on this forum, no posts are removed because I do not like them, and no posts are changed by me either. I do not get together with other admins to suggest we gang up on a poster, either. It's offensive and insulting to me to even suggest I need to do that. I can hold my own in debate.

I suggest that's really what the problem is here:

a. You don't agree with me.

b. You aren't as you see it "winning the argument".

EnigmaVX

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:52 pm

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

I feel that I should clarify my post a little.

I did not mean to use the movies as canon. I was just trying to point out a seeming incongruity. The reason I used the movie is that although Hollywood will always add its own twist to a book it will usually follow the main plot. Furthermore I have always been under the assumption that JK has quite a bit of influence in the making of these films and has told both the actors and other people such as the directors etc. the entire plot. I attempted to point out using not only the books & movies but her interviews inconsistent messages regarding his character. I also invited responses by asking questions which meant everyone was free to chime in whether agreeing or not.

Furthermore the entire post was in response to the thread title Does it Really Matter…and the initial post. I was trying to discuss why so many people (a lot of whom are woman) find Snape so intriguing, dare I say sexy. This attempt was a personal point of view and my reasons just happen to include the movies due to Allan Rickman, (sighs in lust). I had always found Snape’s character intriguing but had never considered him all that sexually appealing despite the fact he had a lot of other sexy qualities listed in my post due to the mental image I had of his appearance tell the first movie, I still recall the moment I said WHOA hold the horses Rickman/Snape = new fantasy. Which is a big part of why I so love a lot of the fanfic at this site.

I have other more serious and canon based posts elsewhere, I debated just where this one would properly fit since it mixed the two mediums plus it included the interviews.

I feel bad it has led to ill feelings between any other posters, and hope that it could be taken in the light hearted and I thought somewhat amusing way I tried to write it, seems I failed. (wonders where to take a refresher course in writing)

Verity Brown

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:52 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

azazello wrote:

True canon fans HATE Steven Kloves

So, are you saying that a person cannot be a true canon fan if they don't hate Steven Kloves (and, by extension, the movies)?

From what I've observed J. K. Rowling seems to have a pretty good working relationship with him--or else she's faking it pretty well. Unless and until she starts objecting to what he does, I plan to cut him some slack. She is, after all, the source of canon.

Movies are a different kind of media than books. Not all booklovers can handle what happens to a story in the process of being converted from one format to another. I know a lot of LotR fans who remain, to this day, extremely irritated that anyone even dared to attempt that conversion. For myself, I would rather enjoy movies as movies, and books as books--they each do things that the other can't.

As for considering what is in the movies, no, it is certainly not canon in remotely the sense that the books are. However, if Rowling expresses approval or acceptance of some particular thing that appears in one of the movies, I treat that information rather like an interview--not canon, but pretty dang close.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

azazello

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:40 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

So, are you saying that a person cannot be a true canon fan if they don't hate Steven Kloves (and, by extension, the movies)?

No, I did not say ALL. Most fans of book canon, as opposed to movie and fanfic do hate what he did to characterisation and plot in the movies. That's well know in this on line fandom.

Certainly most canon fans I've known in two years in fandom loathe the guy.

I don't share your faith in the idea of him and JKR having a working relationship, either. She's not going to come out and say he's making a crap job of the screenplays, even if she thinks he is. She has very little input into the movie process, few original writers do, unless they do their own adaptations. Which is incredibly rare.

And where the movie diverts plot wise, dialogue wise, action wise, from the book, then it's not canon. Sorry.

Beulah_Page

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:24 am

Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 14 Location: Nebraska, United States

Well, it seems that we are in the midst of a flame war here (and in other threads). Responding to what I saw as a personal attack was how I became active in one of my other favorite fandoms, and how I learned to take things in stride, but that's neither here nor there.

Often, the post that incites your rage is not intended as a personal attack, and if it is taken as such and responded to, others reading the thread become defensive and join in, creating a rather unpleasant environment for everyone.

Azazello isn't saying she hates all of you for disagreeing, rather, it seems to me she is irritated that not everyone is giving her point of view equal credence.

Nor does any post refuting an argument mean that the poster is in any way inferior or unwelcome. We are all here because we want to discuss these books and the fanfic here, and I, for one, enjoy hearing (reading?) about others' theories. If it's something I don't agree with, at least I can say that it has made me think more carefully about it. I have also seen valued members and frequent contributors of an online community leave because of situations such as this. I'd really hate to see that happen here.

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